TV Program

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The Man Who Saw the End (John)

2008-04-06

PRODUCTION #: 1137

SPEAKER: Shawn Boonstra

GUEST: Richard Stenbakken

History tells us he was dipped in boiling oil and then, as an old man, he was sent to a rocky island where something happened that changed the whole world.

SB (Shawn Boonstra): Now I know we can’t really do it, but given the fact that John wrote so much of the New Testament, and given the fact that his gospel is one of the best-loved parts of the Bible, and the book of Revelation has given us so much to look forward to, I sometimes wish I could actually meet him. So today, lets pull together the Bible facts and study them as if we can actually speak to John. So with the help of my good friend, Dr. Richard Stenbakken, today we’re actually going to meet the Apostle John.

John, I can’t tell you how excited I am to have a man like you on my show. I’ve wanted to talk to you so often and ask you so many questions.

JOHN (Richard Stenbakken): Well, I’m glad to be here. It’s an interesting thing. What is that thing around your neck? They’re not going to hang you, are they?

SB: Oh, no, no, it’s a different world today, John. This is just something they make me wear, but I don’t think I’ll hang from it. We’re safe. But I’ve studied your life a little, and you didn’t always end up in a safe place—you ended up on Patmos, and I’m not so sure I’d pick it as a vacation spot, John. It doesn’t look that great.

JOHN: It really wasn’t a vacation spot at all. I mean, the Romans…it was kind of like a prison, and they put people there that they wanted to get rid of. But you know, Shawn, anywhere you are, if Jesus is there with you, it can work out to His glory.

SB: Wait a minute. You say it’s a prison. It’s a Roman prison?

JOHN: Right.

SB: Well, tell me John, why did the Romans send you to prison? Why are you at Patmos?

JOHN: Well, they wanted me to shut up. They wanted me to quit talking about Jesus and about what He’d done and what I’d seen; and they said, “If you don’t shut up, we’re going to deal with you,” and they tried to do some pretty terrible things.

SB: Well, now I know. You wouldn’t have heard of it, but there was a historian, years after you lived, that wrote about some of your ordeal. Historically, we look back and we see they actually tried to get rid of you before Patmos.

JOHN: Oh, you mean when they boiled me in oil?

SB: Right, right. We read about it in “Foxe’s Book of Martyrs” and some other places.

JOHN: I recommend it.

SB: You’re kidding. Come on.

JOHN: No, really, you know they meant it for ill, but it loosens up everything that’s tight, and it tightens up everything that’s loose. You know, whenever God is with you, and Jesus is with you, it doesn’t matter what people try to do to you. And so when they put me here on this Patmos place, it’s only about three or four miles wide and about seven miles long.

SB: Oh, it’s small.

JOHN: It’s little; very skilled labor here.

SB: Ah, it’s a workplace.

JOHN: They take big rocks and beat them with hammers into little rocks. When I got there, the Roman centurion in charge, he looked at me and he said, “Old man, how old are you?”

And I said, “I’m 90.”

And he said, “You’re too old to work.”

You know, let me tell you something else, when you’re working for Jesus, it doesn’t matter how old you are or how young you are, and He can use anybody. So the centurion, he said to me in front of all the other people, he said, “Just go find yourself a cave over there someplace and just don’t cause any trouble.” You see the Romans wanted me to shut up.

SB: Uh-huh.

JOHN: But here I am and I can devote all my time to the scrolls, and I can pray, and God has revealed things to me. So it worked out fine.

SB: It didn’t work too badly.

JOHN: Oh no.

SB: You’re saying, then, that all these things, no matter what happens to us, God works it out for His glory?

JOHN: Absolutely true.

SB: But John, I’d rather, I think, write a best-selling book and go speak to big crowds in big stadiums, because, you know, that’ll get people’s attention. Now that is bringing glory to God, right?

JOHN: But Shawn, it doesn’t matter where you are, as long as you’re willing to bring glory to Him. He’ll use you wherever you are.

SB: And he really did use you in a special way at Patmos.

JOHN: Oh, yes. Yes.

SB: Tell me what happened.

JOHN: Well, like I say, I was there and God spoke to me, Shawn. Jesus spoke to me and He said, “I want to reveal what’s coming to the world.” And it’s not so much what’s coming to the world as who is coming to the world. He gave me this revelation, this revealing of what’s going to happen.

SB: Now, you call it the revealing. You’re talking about what we would call the book of Revelation.

JOHN: Well, yes..

SB: Yeah, you saw a bunch of stuff in there, didn’t you?

JOHN: Oh, all kinds of—I tell you, some of it I didn’t really understand, but He said, “Write anyway,” and so I did. And He said that later on it would become clear to people, and so I believed Him and I wrote what He showed me, and the things I saw were marvelous.

SB: Well, tell me what you saw. Tell me about some of the things we find in the book of Revelation.

JOHN: Well, see, there’s a series of sevens, and seven is a number of completeness. There were seven trumpets, and seven seals, and Jesus walking among the seven candlesticks. You see, He’s the light of the world and He’s the light of the church, and all of these things He gave to us to reveal to us…

SB: You say “to reveal.” I hear a lot of people today, John, they tell me, “Listen, what John wrote in Revelation, it’s impossible to understand. We’re not meant to understand those things.”

JOHN: Oh, no. Look at the name of the book. It’s called Revelation, “to reveal.” True, you have to study it and you have to say, “Lord, help me see.” And with some things, just like when I wrote it, I didn’t understand all of it. But little by little, God will reveal and He will change us, Shawn. He will change us.

SB: Well, listen, out of all the Bible characters, you’ve kind of got one of the best reputations all these years later. We think of you as the beloved disciple.

JOHN: Well, that’s a little embarrassing, because yes, I loved Jesus, and I was known as the beloved disciple, but I wasn’t always a very lovely person. I had some serious flaws.

SB: Tell me about it. Share with us a little bit. What’s not to like about John?

JOHN: Let me be honest. I’ve got one of Luke’s scrolls here. An argument started among the disciples—as to which of us would be the greatest. See, we always wanted to know who is first. See when you hang out with Jesus, He knows what you’re thinking, even though you don’t say it; and He took a little child and had him stand beside Him. Then He said to them, to us, “Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes the one who sent me. He is the greatest.”

So, see, we were talking about who was the greatest and Jesus said, “If you serve and welcome people, that’s what makes you great.” Not trying to be first. See, I was known as the son of thunder. Boom. Boom. Boom. I shot off my mouth to Luke and I’m not proud of this, but we want to be real.

“Master,” said John, “That’s me.”

SB: Yeah, there you are.

JOHN: “We saw a man driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him because he wasn’t one of us. That’s pride. You have to be one of us.”

SB: Yeah.

JOHN: And Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for whosoever is not against us is for us.” Jesus said, “No. No you have to work with people.” And then as the time approached for Him to be taken to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. See, we walked with Him wherever He went.

And he sent messengers ahead. He went to a Samaritan village. See, we didn’t get along well with the Samaritans in getting things ready for Him, but the people there didn’t welcome Him because He was going to Jerusalem. And when the disciples, James and John (me) saw this they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven and destroy them?”

SB: Ahh...

JOHN: Make them crispy critters. And Jesus turned and rebuked them, and they went to another village. See, Shawn, I was always looking out for myself, even when Jesus was looking out for me.

SB: That’s not John now, though. You saw things that changed you. As you were with Jesus, He made you into a different person. You saw things, didn’t you?

JOHN: Yes. The things that Jesus did, I was there when John the Baptist was preaching, I’ll never forget it. John said, “Behold, the talia, the Lamb.” Not just baa-baa, sheep. But that special word, the talia, the Lamb of God—that’s the sacrificial lamb, that’s the Passover lamb.

SB: Ah, so he’s saying a lot.

JOHN: Oh, Shawn, and then he baptized Jesus, and there was a voice, I followed Jesus that day, that very day. I went with Him. I went with Him and he began to teach, and I began to believe, but I still wanted to be important. But Jesus’ love changed me.

SB: Yeah, you saw some other things. John, I’ve read that you saw Jesus in His glory early on.

JOHN: Oh, yes, at the transfiguration. We went up to the top of the mountain. It was beautiful. And we were there and Jesus was praying, and suddenly it was covered with a cloud and there was Moses and Elijah, right there with Jesus. And we saw Jesus talking to Moses and Elijah! And poor Peter was so excited he just didn’t know what to do, and he wanted to build something…

SB: (laughs)

JOHN: It was marvelous. And you know what I learned from that?

Well, here’s Moses, the Old Testament writer, the scroll writer, and Elijah the prophet. And you see, it confirmed what the scrolls say about Jesus. Jesus is the one that they all point to—He’s the Lamb. I began to understand it. But, see, understanding something here and making it change the way you live, sometimes that takes longer and it takes a decision, and it just, it wasn’t easy for me.

SB: No. I understand you were at Lazarus’ tomb.

JOHN: Yes. Yes, I was there and when we got there the family was so disappointed. The sister said, “If you would have been here earlier, he wouldn’t have died.

And that was almost like, “Yeah, see, Jesus told us that this would work for God’s glory.” And we thought, “How can death work for God’s glory?” But it did, and he said, “Roll away the stone.” And they said, “He’s been dead for three days. It’s hot. And a body...”

SB: Yeah, I get it.

JOHN: But he said, “No, roll it away,” and then he said, I’ll never forget it, Shawn, he said, “Lazarus, come forth.” And he did! Lazarus, he was all wrapped up and he came shuffling out. But you see, the beauty of it was not only that Jesus brought him back to life, but the other part of the beauty of it was when he said, “You, unwrap him and free him.” And I began to understand that what Jesus is about is the power of God, the power of the Father, coming to this earth and involving us. You see, Jesus, with a word, could have stripped the grave cloth off him, but we have to work in cooperation with Jesus.

SB: I’ve often heard it said that it’s a good thing Jesus called Lazarus by name, because if He would have just said, “Come forth,” all the graves...

JOHN: All the graves.

SB: Everybody.

JOHN: Could have emptied.

SB: And saving that…

JOHN: And Shawn, someday that will happen.

SB: Yeah.

JOHN: That will happen.

SB: Oh, exactly. Boy, I wish you could just see how much people have read that book that you wrote, the gospel that you wrote. It’s really one of the first things we give people when they want to meet Jesus, and God’s just used you tremendously. I’ve noticed, though, that you spend some time on the life and ministry of Jesus, but there’s a lot of space in your book given to the last few days of his life. Take us now to the last days of Jesus’ life. For example, take me to the Last Supper.

JOHN: Jesus told us, “I’ve wanted to eat this meal with you.” He sent Peter and me, especially the two of us, oldest and youngest. I was the youngest and it’s hard to believe that I’m the only one left now, and we were to get things ready for the fellowship meal and the Passover meal. And we got most everything ready, but we were kind of sloppy and we didn’t get somebody to wash our feet. That’s kind of an offensive thing, and it’s something that the lowest...

SB: Right.

JOHN: Well, in my writing I talk about the doulos, the slave, not just a servant, but a slave.

SB: Right.

JOHN: That’s something a slave would do, and we hadn’t arranged for anybody to do that. And while we were silently bickering, because we still bickered, Jesus stood up and I just about fell over. He took off his outer garment. Shawn, and He began to wash our feet.

SB: Unbelievable.

JOHN: Poor Peter, he didn’t want to have anything to do with that, and Jesus corrected him. But see, Jesus was trying to teach us, Shawn, trying to teach me and trying to teach you and all of us, that we’re called to be servants, to serve, to take care of each other and other people.

SB: John, you, and Peter were there, I mean, everybody was there. Judas was there.

JOHN: Yes, poor Judas. You know, we had such hopes for Judas. He had such—he had ability. He was smart. He thought he was smarter than he was, and he betrayed Jesus. But you know, Shawn, Jesus washed his feet too. Jesus didn’t reject even the man who betrayed him. Jesus was trying to help us understand that the greatest is a servant. Just like I read from Luke, having the child stand there, to have the faith of a child, that’s what makes you great.

SB: And then Judas went out to betray Jesus, though.

JOHN: Yes, he did. But still, Shawn, even when Judas was betraying Jesus, Jesus called him friend.

SB: That’s stunning.

JOHN: You see Jesus wanted to bring him back. That’s what Jesus is about.

SB: So in your mind, do you separate you and the other disciples from Judas, or is there something in Judas that is part of all of us?

JOHN: Oh, Shawn…

SB: I mean the rest of you didn’t betray Christ.

JOHN: But there are other ways you can betray Jesus. You know, you can say, “I’m a believer,” and maybe you can even believe it, but it doesn’t change the way you behave, and that betrays Jesus, because people are confused. They say, “You say you’re a Christian and yet you act that way. You take His name and you use it in ways you shouldn’t use it.” There are so many ways to betray Him.

SB: Let’s move forward a little bit now. Let’s go from the meal down to the courtyard of the high priest, because John, I’ve noticed in the account that it says you were inside. You were inside the courtyard, and I have to know, how did you get in?

JOHN: Well, first, all of us just ran away. In fact, one in our group, they grabbed him, and he ran right out of his tunic.

SB: Ha, I’ve read that.

JOHN: I won’t tell you which one it was, but I was a fisherman, okay? We had a fishing business and we sold fish to the priests and so I knew them. But, you see, I had studied with the priests because I wanted to be a priest...

SB: You know, I read about a historian, Eusebius. He actually mentioned, well, you wouldn’t know him. He was just after you and he actually mentioned that you had studied for the priesthood. He said you bore the sacerdotal plate.

JOHN: Yeah, I was studying, you see, because again that was my younger self who wanted to be powerful, and in charge, and important. But you see, since I had studied with the priests, and since I had sold fish to the priests, they knew me, and they let me in. And I got Peter in, too.

SB: So you got in there. You followed the proceedings. Take us now to the crucifixion. You were there, weren’t you, John?

JOHN: Oh, Shawn, they took Jesus and they drove those nails into those hands that I had seen Him use to heal people. They nailed him to the cross. You know, He even prayed for the man who was hurting Him. He said, “Father, forgive them.” I felt so helpless. One of the things He said was to take care of His mother. You see, He was always taking care of people. He changed me, Shawn. He changed me.

SB: Tell me about what happened after the cross.

JOHN: We hid like children in the upper room, and then the women came to us. They said the tomb was empty, and I ran as fast as I could, and I got there, and I stopped at the outside. I guess, maybe, my priestly training wouldn’t let me go in.

SB: You didn’t step in.

JOHN: No. No, Peter just ran right in and then I...

SB: That sounds like Peter, doesn’t it?

JOHN: Oh yeah, nothing stopped Peter, and then Jesus appeared to us. I saw Him, Shawn, I saw Him alive. Not an empty tomb. I saw the living Jesus.

SB: You didn’t just see the empty tomb, you saw Jesus.

JOHN: I saw Jesus. Oh, what an experience! You see, He gave us hope and that’s what this book of Revelation is all about. But see, Shawn, the richest revelation is that He changes lives. He changed my life.

SB: Let me stop you at something you just said. I read your writing, Revelation…and I’m pretty sure I read it once a month beginning to end. For the last 10 or 15 years I’ve done that. And over and over again, I’ve read that book and I’ve listened to people talk about it, and they always come to the middle of that book, and they get hung up. Here’s this beast coming out of the sea and so on and they dwell on that point—was that your point?

JOHN: No. No. No. The point is that Jesus is the one who is coming back to the world. All these symbols point to His power. He overcomes everything. He overcomes isolation. He…see, on this island it doesn’t matter where I am, as long as I’m in His hand. That’s what counts, and so the book of Revelation is to reveal that He’s coming back for all of us.

SB: Yeah.

JOHN: And he can turn any tragedy into triumph—that’s the book of Revelation.

SB: John, today I just stepped back in time so we could meet and talk. If you could step back in time, if you could go back years and you were young again, and Jesus of Nazareth comes by, do you do it again?

JOHN: Oh, Shawn, I would do it a hundred times.

SB: John, you had tough times, though.

JOHN: Oh, but those tough times are nothing compared to what He’s revealed will happen. That’s nothing—that’s just…that’s nothing, that’s a piece of dust. The reality is that Jesus is Lord, that Jesus is coming back, that Jesus can triumph over everything, that Jesus helped me be a servant. And Shawn, when you serve Him, you see, you’re a prophet, and I’m a prophet, that means to speak for Jesus.

SB: Yes.

JOHN: Let me read to you the end of the scroll.

SB: Please do, I love this.

JOHN: I love it, too. “‘Behold, I’m coming soon. Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.’ I, John,”—that’s me—“I am the one who heard and saw these things, and when I had heard and seen them I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel, who had been showing them to me. But he said, ‘Don’t do it,’”—and listen, listen to what he said. The angel said—“‘I am a fellow servant with you,’ and he went on to say, ‘and with all your brothers, sisters, the prophets, and all who keep the words of this book. Worship God.’” So you see, we’re all together Shawn. We’re all His people if we keep what he writes and tells us, we’ll look up and we’ll see Him coming again.

SB: And that’s what it’s about, isn’t it?

JOHN: Oh, yes. Yes.

SB: Oh, John, thank you for the hope you’ve given so many people. Thank you for coming on the program today.

JOHN: Amen and amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

SB: You know, John’s writings have really touched a lot of hearts all over the world. And there’s a good reason we often recommend that people start to learn about Jesus by reading the gospel of John. So, today I’d like to challenge you to do the same thing. Take your Bible and read the gospel of John. I know you have a busy schedule and time is tight, but try it. Block out an hour or two and just read it through from beginning to end. And I think you’re going to make an interesting discovery, even if you’ve read that book before.

You’re going to see a picture of Jesus that can literally change your life. And then, as you get to the end of the book, put your Bible down and spend a little time talking to God. Tell him that you want to know this Jesus, this same Jesus that John knew. Tell him you want to have your life changed, too, and that you want to be an apostle of love to the world. But I want you to mean it. I want you to be willing to live it, to take what you read and live your life that way. And if that’s the case, if you do it with a willing heart, it’s going to change your whole world. Let’s pray together.

PRAYER:
Father in heaven, we think of the people that Jesus touched and changed—John, who wrote so much of the New Testament, a son of thunder—became the beloved disciple. He’s given hope to millions around the world, and our prayer today is that you would take our lives and mold them too, so that we can be beacons of hope, a message to the world that Jesus loves them and He’s coming again. Take our hearts. Change us, we ask, in the wonderful name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

To learn more about Richard Stenbakken and his DVD series, please visit www.dickstenbakken.com.

Scriptures Used in “The Man Who Saw the End (John)”

“Again, the next day, John stood with two of his disciples. And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, ‘Behold the Lamb of God!’ The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.”
—John 1:35-37

“Then he said to me, ‘These words are faithful and true.’ And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place. ‘Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.’ Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. Then he said to me, ‘See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.’”
—Revelation 22:6-9